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	<title>Comments on: Hebrew Bible vs. Old Testament</title>
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	<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/</link>
	<description>a blog exploring Christian origins, biblical studies, social/cultural history, method, education and the journey through academia</description>
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		<title>By: John Anderson</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-/#comment-910</link>
		<dc:creator>John Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 01:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-910</guid>
		<description>Nick:

Childs may make that point, I would have to go back and look again.  I recall it vaguely, so it must not have been a seminal part of his argument (nor do I recall him using the phrase &quot;Tanak Theology&quot;).  I may have mentioned to you that Jon Levenson has an article out entitled something like &quot;Why Jews are Not Interested in Old Testament Theology.&quot;

And, in a bit of jest, of course you&#039;ve never met a &lt;i&gt;Reformed&lt;/i&gt; Jew.  No one has.  No such person exists.  Now, a &lt;i&gt;Reform&lt;/i&gt; Jew (as Pat says), that I can be on board with.  Just razzing you buddy!  But, to tell the truth, I have seen Reform Jews very bluntly correct those who call them &quot;Reformed&quot; Jews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick:</p>
<p>Childs may make that point, I would have to go back and look again.  I recall it vaguely, so it must not have been a seminal part of his argument (nor do I recall him using the phrase &#8220;Tanak Theology&#8221;).  I may have mentioned to you that Jon Levenson has an article out entitled something like &#8220;Why Jews are Not Interested in Old Testament Theology.&#8221;</p>
<p>And, in a bit of jest, of course you&#8217;ve never met a <i>Reformed</i> Jew.  No one has.  No such person exists.  Now, a <i>Reform</i> Jew (as Pat says), that I can be on board with.  Just razzing you buddy!  But, to tell the truth, I have seen Reform Jews very bluntly correct those who call them &#8220;Reformed&#8221; Jews.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick George McCullough</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-/#comment-920</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick George McCullough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 06:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-920</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s interesting. I have had very good friends, including one of my groomsmen, who are Reform Jews. My groomsman&#039;s sister is actually studying to be a cantor in the Reform Jewish tradition.

I attended a Messianic Jewish Synagogue for a couple months. As far as I know, me and a friend of mine were the only Gentiles there! Though I have known several Gentiles very interested in Messianic Judaism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s interesting. I have had very good friends, including one of my groomsmen, who are Reform Jews. My groomsman&#8217;s sister is actually studying to be a cantor in the Reform Jewish tradition.</p>
<p>I attended a Messianic Jewish Synagogue for a couple months. As far as I know, me and a friend of mine were the only Gentiles there! Though I have known several Gentiles very interested in Messianic Judaism.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Norelli</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-1/#comment-919</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Norelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-919</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Pat&lt;/b&gt;: I&#039;ve never actually met a Reformed Jew although I&#039;ve read about them.  And funnily enough, of all the &quot;Messianic Jews&quot; I&#039;ve met, almost all of them were actually Gentiles!  Figure that one out...

&lt;b&gt;John&lt;/b&gt;: Re: &quot;Tanak theology&quot; -- Isn&#039;t that one of Childs&#039; staring points in &lt;i&gt;Old Testament Theology in a Canonical Context&lt;/i&gt;, i.e., that Jews themselves don&#039;t write OT theologies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Pat</b>: I&#8217;ve never actually met a Reformed Jew although I&#8217;ve read about them.  And funnily enough, of all the &#8220;Messianic Jews&#8221; I&#8217;ve met, almost all of them were actually Gentiles!  Figure that one out&#8230;</p>
<p><b>John</b>: Re: &#8220;Tanak theology&#8221; &#8212; Isn&#8217;t that one of Childs&#8217; staring points in <i>Old Testament Theology in a Canonical Context</i>, i.e., that Jews themselves don&#8217;t write OT theologies?</p>
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		<title>By: Hebrew Student</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-1/#comment-918</link>
		<dc:creator>Hebrew Student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:22:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-918</guid>
		<description>Tanakh or Hebrew Bible are both very heavily used terms, and have the advantages that both refer to the same thing among both Jews and non-Jews, as well as not being ambiguous in any way. If you say &quot;Old Testament&quot; you are making it obvious that you are coming from a Christian background, because Jews would not call it that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tanakh or Hebrew Bible are both very heavily used terms, and have the advantages that both refer to the same thing among both Jews and non-Jews, as well as not being ambiguous in any way. If you say &#8220;Old Testament&#8221; you are making it obvious that you are coming from a Christian background, because Jews would not call it that.</p>
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		<title>By: slaveofone</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-1/#comment-917</link>
		<dc:creator>slaveofone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-917</guid>
		<description>Ah, labels. Can&#039;t live with them, can&#039;t live without them.

I prefer “Hebrew Bible” in most cases, although I sometimes use “Torah” (limited to the five Mosaic scrolls and pronounced appropriately). The big problem I have with “Hebrew Bible” is the word “Bible.” It implies a notion of canon, book culture, and/or text-form limitation that is far too arbitrary, anachronistic, and reductionistic. I touch on this problem briefly in my post &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.echoofeden.com/digest/slaveofone/2009/02/17/annoying-biblical-studies-terminology/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Annoying Biblical Studies Terminology&lt;/a&gt; in which I decry the term “final form.” However, I do think one can use “Hebrew Bible” in an inclusive sense to mean ANY text which might or might not be part of one canon or another and which might or might not be in one arrangement/order or another, and which might or might not be based on one text-form or another, and which might or might not exist in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. The thing that holds the term together is the ancient Israelite peoples (&quot;Hebrew&quot;) and their traditions (&quot;Bible&quot;). Thus, when I say “Bible,” I am speaking of a metaphoric box and the historical situation in which that box exists, not so much the content or arrangement of that metaphoric box (see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.echoofeden.com/digest/slaveofone/2009/02/17/annoying-biblical-studies-terminology/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Annoying Biblical Studies Terminology&lt;/a&gt;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, labels. Can&#8217;t live with them, can&#8217;t live without them.</p>
<p>I prefer “Hebrew Bible” in most cases, although I sometimes use “Torah” (limited to the five Mosaic scrolls and pronounced appropriately). The big problem I have with “Hebrew Bible” is the word “Bible.” It implies a notion of canon, book culture, and/or text-form limitation that is far too arbitrary, anachronistic, and reductionistic. I touch on this problem briefly in my post <a href="http://www.echoofeden.com/digest/slaveofone/2009/02/17/annoying-biblical-studies-terminology/" rel="nofollow">Annoying Biblical Studies Terminology</a> in which I decry the term “final form.” However, I do think one can use “Hebrew Bible” in an inclusive sense to mean ANY text which might or might not be part of one canon or another and which might or might not be in one arrangement/order or another, and which might or might not be based on one text-form or another, and which might or might not exist in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. The thing that holds the term together is the ancient Israelite peoples (&#8220;Hebrew&#8221;) and their traditions (&#8220;Bible&#8221;). Thus, when I say “Bible,” I am speaking of a metaphoric box and the historical situation in which that box exists, not so much the content or arrangement of that metaphoric box (see <a href="http://www.echoofeden.com/digest/slaveofone/2009/02/17/annoying-biblical-studies-terminology/" rel="nofollow">Annoying Biblical Studies Terminology</a>).</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick George McCullough</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-/#comment-915</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick George McCullough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-915</guid>
		<description>Thanks, John. I haven&#039;t yet read it, but this article seems relevant to the discussion:

Moshe H. Goshen-Gottstein, &quot;Tanakh Theology : The Religion of the Old Testament and the Place of Jewish Biblical Theology.&quot; In Ancient Israelite Religion: Essays in Honor of Frank Moore Cross, 617-644. Philadelphia: Fortress Pr, 1987.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, John. I haven&#8217;t yet read it, but this article seems relevant to the discussion:</p>
<p>Moshe H. Goshen-Gottstein, &#8220;Tanakh Theology : The Religion of the Old Testament and the Place of Jewish Biblical Theology.&#8221; In Ancient Israelite Religion: Essays in Honor of Frank Moore Cross, 617-644. Philadelphia: Fortress Pr, 1987.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick George McCullough</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-/#comment-916</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick George McCullough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-916</guid>
		<description>Thanks, z! I do have a few more designations in that older post I&#039;ve linked to above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, z! I do have a few more designations in that older post I&#8217;ve linked to above.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick George McCullough</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-/#comment-913</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick George McCullough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-913</guid>
		<description>I included Nick&#039;s entire post in this pingback because I think it&#039;s helpful. I have had similar experience with my Jewish friends and acquaintances regarding their most used designations. My friends, though, have been more often Reform or Conservative Jews than Orthodox (though I did sit next to an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi from Israel on a plane this past spring). I don&#039;t use &quot;Bible&quot; because of the confusion--who knows which Bible I&#039;d be talking about? And I don&#039;t use Torah just because my academic self wants me to be more precise--unless I really am only talking about the Torah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I included Nick&#8217;s entire post in this pingback because I think it&#8217;s helpful. I have had similar experience with my Jewish friends and acquaintances regarding their most used designations. My friends, though, have been more often Reform or Conservative Jews than Orthodox (though I did sit next to an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi from Israel on a plane this past spring). I don&#8217;t use &#8220;Bible&#8221; because of the confusion&#8211;who knows which Bible I&#8217;d be talking about? And I don&#8217;t use Torah just because my academic self wants me to be more precise&#8211;unless I really am only talking about the Torah.</p>
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		<title>By: zdenny</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-1/#comment-914</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-914</guid>
		<description>You are a gifted writer.  It was fun reading your stuff.  I have subscribed!  I would recommend a few more definitions so people can follow it since it is so deep</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are a gifted writer.  It was fun reading your stuff.  I have subscribed!  I would recommend a few more definitions so people can follow it since it is so deep</p>
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		<title>By: John Anderson</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/07/03/hebrew-bible-vs-old-testament/comment-page-1/#comment-912</link>
		<dc:creator>John Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 08:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1000#comment-912</guid>
		<description>Pat:

Thanks for your comments!  I have begun to think recently about using Tanak, but it sounds a bit odd to me---probably because I&#039;ve never used it in such a context (Tanak theology?!?!).  But, I do think it is a fine choice that seems to remedy many of the attendant difficulties of Hebrew Bible.  Yet, as a scholarly convention, Hebrew Bible seems to be well-accepted.  And as you might expect, I agree quite wholly with your sentiments that one&#039;s choice should be governed by a modicum of respect, but also by context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat:</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments!  I have begun to think recently about using Tanak, but it sounds a bit odd to me&#8212;probably because I&#8217;ve never used it in such a context (Tanak theology?!?!).  But, I do think it is a fine choice that seems to remedy many of the attendant difficulties of Hebrew Bible.  Yet, as a scholarly convention, Hebrew Bible seems to be well-accepted.  And as you might expect, I agree quite wholly with your sentiments that one&#8217;s choice should be governed by a modicum of respect, but also by context.</p>
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