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	<title>Comments on: Teaching the Bible as Western Civilization</title>
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	<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/</link>
	<description>a blog exploring Christian origins, biblical studies, social/cultural history, method, education and the journey through academia</description>
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		<title>By: Around the Blogs &#171; Christ, My Righteousness</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/comment-page-1/#comment-1238</link>
		<dc:creator>Around the Blogs &#171; Christ, My Righteousness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 00:38:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1483#comment-1238</guid>
		<description>[...] thought-provoking  title, Teaching the Bible as Western Civilization. Do read my brief interaction with Patrick on this very title.   Possibly related posts: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thought-provoking  title, Teaching the Bible as Western Civilization. Do read my brief interaction with Patrick on this very title.   Possibly related posts: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick George McCullough</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/comment-page-/#comment-1239</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick George McCullough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 02:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1483#comment-1239</guid>
		<description>Amen, Lou! I&#039;m with you on that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, Lou! I&#8217;m with you on that point.</p>
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		<title>By: Celucien Joseph</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/comment-page-1/#comment-1240</link>
		<dc:creator>Celucien Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 01:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1483#comment-1240</guid>
		<description>Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the clarification. I apologize if I made a premature judgment. However, the history of western civilization, at least from the perspective of colonial conquests and colonialism as a violent system, has been for the most part a Christian conquest.  For example, when Westerners set their foot on the dry land of Africa, Asia, and the Caribbean isles for the first time, they brought the Bible with them, a symbiotic marker between Western culture and Western Christianity. They depicted and expressed themselves as  the people of the book and the civilized Westerners, who were bringing the good news of the Bible and Western civilization, correspondingly  ( a reality they could not divorce themselves from), to the native savages. This is known as &quot;la mission civilatrice&quot; (&quot;civilized mission&quot;) as the French conquerers called it.

Another example pertains to  when westerner Christian missionaries and colonialists went to Africa. Africans’ reception of the Bible was expressed in terms of a mélange of reverence and awe, disdain and bewilderment. Why were such complex attitudes toward Scriptures? Well,  the Bible as cargo was rightly identified with the Europeans along with other cargo, and a host of differences the Westerners brought in with them. These include their appearance, speech and worldview. They presented themselves to be “other” in the world of the Africans and thought themselves to be powerful, superior, and civilized. Beyond what has been stated; Africans could not be persuaded the “sacred” could be located in a book as the European missionaries believed and maintained. Inevitably, it was not the European’s perception of the sacred nature of the book that was problematic to the Africans. “It was instead the Europeans’ claims regarding the boundness and the exclusive authority of the book and their emphasis on the past and on the discontinuous, or single, nature of the revelation associated with the book.”  Indeed, it was a clash of two different worldviews; these two were irreconcilable.

I stop now.
Lou</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Patrick,</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification. I apologize if I made a premature judgment. However, the history of western civilization, at least from the perspective of colonial conquests and colonialism as a violent system, has been for the most part a Christian conquest.  For example, when Westerners set their foot on the dry land of Africa, Asia, and the Caribbean isles for the first time, they brought the Bible with them, a symbiotic marker between Western culture and Western Christianity. They depicted and expressed themselves as  the people of the book and the civilized Westerners, who were bringing the good news of the Bible and Western civilization, correspondingly  ( a reality they could not divorce themselves from), to the native savages. This is known as &#8220;la mission civilatrice&#8221; (&#8220;civilized mission&#8221;) as the French conquerers called it.</p>
<p>Another example pertains to  when westerner Christian missionaries and colonialists went to Africa. Africans’ reception of the Bible was expressed in terms of a mélange of reverence and awe, disdain and bewilderment. Why were such complex attitudes toward Scriptures? Well,  the Bible as cargo was rightly identified with the Europeans along with other cargo, and a host of differences the Westerners brought in with them. These include their appearance, speech and worldview. They presented themselves to be “other” in the world of the Africans and thought themselves to be powerful, superior, and civilized. Beyond what has been stated; Africans could not be persuaded the “sacred” could be located in a book as the European missionaries believed and maintained. Inevitably, it was not the European’s perception of the sacred nature of the book that was problematic to the Africans. “It was instead the Europeans’ claims regarding the boundness and the exclusive authority of the book and their emphasis on the past and on the discontinuous, or single, nature of the revelation associated with the book.”  Indeed, it was a clash of two different worldviews; these two were irreconcilable.</p>
<p>I stop now.<br />
Lou</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick George McCullough</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/comment-page-/#comment-1246</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick George McCullough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1483#comment-1246</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment, Celucien. The title is, of course, meant to be a little provocative. I&#039;m glad to see it provoked you, though I find &quot;the idea it conveys [to you]&quot; somewhat unjustified. Do note that the title is &quot;Teaching the Bible as Western Civilization&quot; (that is, a post on how to teach biblical texts as part of the context of western civilization -- from my experience, a common use of the word &quot;as&quot; in titles) and not &quot;The Bible is Western Civilization.&quot; I am a bit surprised that you jumped to the term &quot;equals&quot; from the title. As well as your use of the term &quot;Christianity,&quot; which tells me that, for you, the term &quot;Christianity&quot; &quot;equals&quot; &quot;the Bible.&quot; Which, if true, I would find quite disturbing -- for the sake of &quot;Christianity&quot; and for the sake of &quot;the Bible.&quot; After all, the texts I mention are Genesis and Exodus -- which I wouldn&#039;t use to describe &quot;Christianity.&quot;

I don&#039;t imagine you would be disturbed at the Epic of Gilgamesh or Hammurabi&#039;s Code or Homer&#039;s Iliad, etc., as a part of western civilization. These are all texts that are important as the foundations begin forming for what we call western civilization. The texts from Genesis and Exodus help us &quot;do history&quot; when we&#039;re talking about the first empires  of the ancient world (and their cities and cultures).

I don&#039;t think the title needs to imply that this is all the biblical texts are good for, of course, but we can&#039;t deny them a place among other important historical documents in the roots of western civilization.

Finally, well, it&#039;s just a title. Anyone who reads the post, I think, should be able to see that I am not equating Christianity, or anything else, with western civilization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment, Celucien. The title is, of course, meant to be a little provocative. I&#8217;m glad to see it provoked you, though I find &#8220;the idea it conveys [to you]&#8221; somewhat unjustified. Do note that the title is &#8220;Teaching the Bible as Western Civilization&#8221; (that is, a post on how to teach biblical texts as part of the context of western civilization &#8212; from my experience, a common use of the word &#8220;as&#8221; in titles) and not &#8220;The Bible is Western Civilization.&#8221; I am a bit surprised that you jumped to the term &#8220;equals&#8221; from the title. As well as your use of the term &#8220;Christianity,&#8221; which tells me that, for you, the term &#8220;Christianity&#8221; &#8220;equals&#8221; &#8220;the Bible.&#8221; Which, if true, I would find quite disturbing &#8212; for the sake of &#8220;Christianity&#8221; and for the sake of &#8220;the Bible.&#8221; After all, the texts I mention are Genesis and Exodus &#8212; which I wouldn&#8217;t use to describe &#8220;Christianity.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t imagine you would be disturbed at the Epic of Gilgamesh or Hammurabi&#8217;s Code or Homer&#8217;s Iliad, etc., as a part of western civilization. These are all texts that are important as the foundations begin forming for what we call western civilization. The texts from Genesis and Exodus help us &#8220;do history&#8221; when we&#8217;re talking about the first empires  of the ancient world (and their cities and cultures).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the title needs to imply that this is all the biblical texts are good for, of course, but we can&#8217;t deny them a place among other important historical documents in the roots of western civilization.</p>
<p>Finally, well, it&#8217;s just a title. Anyone who reads the post, I think, should be able to see that I am not equating Christianity, or anything else, with western civilization.</p>
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		<title>By: Celucien Joseph</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/comment-page-1/#comment-1245</link>
		<dc:creator>Celucien Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 03:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1483#comment-1245</guid>
		<description>Patrick,
I find the title of this post quite disturbing. The idea it conveys is that Christianity equals to Western Civilization or Western Civilization or culture is in fact Christianity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick,<br />
I find the title of this post quite disturbing. The idea it conveys is that Christianity equals to Western Civilization or Western Civilization or culture is in fact Christianity.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick George McCullough</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/comment-page-/#comment-1244</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick George McCullough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 04:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1483#comment-1244</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Sonja. I may borrow from this a bit, perhaps next week. I could frame it as preparation for the exam too, which may include one of the biblical texts for explication.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Sonja. I may borrow from this a bit, perhaps next week. I could frame it as preparation for the exam too, which may include one of the biblical texts for explication.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick George McCullough</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/comment-page-/#comment-1243</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick George McCullough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 04:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1483#comment-1243</guid>
		<description>Actually, Rob, the textbook (a Western civ survey) does have a little coverage of some of that -- probably as good as could be expected in that sort of textbook. But, yeah, the topic is a bit outside the bounds of the discussion (unfortunately!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Rob, the textbook (a Western civ survey) does have a little coverage of some of that &#8212; probably as good as could be expected in that sort of textbook. But, yeah, the topic is a bit outside the bounds of the discussion (unfortunately!).</p>
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		<title>By: robgreid</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/comment-page-1/#comment-1242</link>
		<dc:creator>robgreid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1483#comment-1242</guid>
		<description>Although I doubt this would work, a discussion of the religio-political development of Israelite royal ideology and the transformation it underwent in Second Temple Judaism(s) toward various messianisms :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I doubt this would work, a discussion of the religio-political development of Israelite royal ideology and the transformation it underwent in Second Temple Judaism(s) toward various messianisms <img src='http://patmccullough.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: sonja</title>
		<link>http://patmccullough.com/2009/10/12/teaching-the-bible-as-western-civilization/comment-page-1/#comment-1241</link>
		<dc:creator>sonja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patmccullough.com/?p=1483#comment-1241</guid>
		<description>I wonder if, for this last session, you might be able to do a pre-emptive strike (please forgive my military language).  Perhaps begin your session with a introductory note that goes something like this:

I&#039;ve been teaching &quot;x&quot; sessions (x = number of class periods you teach each week).  This is my last class and I&#039;ve noticed a trend as we&#039;ve gone through (list the myths that you&#039;ve discussed).  You guys have great insights and I&#039;m terribly impressed.  (Lay it on thick ... but keep it in your own words).  But when we get to this week and we discuss the Bible, that seems to be a stumbling place and all of us (me included) don&#039;t seem to be able to approach this text with the same sense of objectivity that we do the others.  Why do you think that might be?

Or ... conversely ... cut the class discussion short ... leave yourself 10 to 15 minutes at the end and close with this.

Or even open next week&#039;s discussions with this ... let them answer it and find the reasons.  Work it through together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if, for this last session, you might be able to do a pre-emptive strike (please forgive my military language).  Perhaps begin your session with a introductory note that goes something like this:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been teaching &#8220;x&#8221; sessions (x = number of class periods you teach each week).  This is my last class and I&#8217;ve noticed a trend as we&#8217;ve gone through (list the myths that you&#8217;ve discussed).  You guys have great insights and I&#8217;m terribly impressed.  (Lay it on thick &#8230; but keep it in your own words).  But when we get to this week and we discuss the Bible, that seems to be a stumbling place and all of us (me included) don&#8217;t seem to be able to approach this text with the same sense of objectivity that we do the others.  Why do you think that might be?</p>
<p>Or &#8230; conversely &#8230; cut the class discussion short &#8230; leave yourself 10 to 15 minutes at the end and close with this.</p>
<p>Or even open next week&#8217;s discussions with this &#8230; let them answer it and find the reasons.  Work it through together.</p>
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